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	<title>Comments on: Collusion by Any Other Name Would Smell as Foul</title>
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		<title>By: chasfh</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21533</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[chasfh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2018 18:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mike: 

Even granting that a legal finding of collusion must entail an explicit agreement and explicit communication attended thereto, to Zack&#039;s point (as I interpret it), isn&#039;t it possible that the way in which the owners set up the 2016 CBA—i.e., with the escalation of luxury tax, related forfeitures of draft picks, etc.—might constitute a sort of collusion aforethought in strategy, without the need for subsequent agreement and communication in tactics?  

IOW, is it possible the ownership cabal set up the CBA in such a way that they could not be faulted for acting in their own individual best interests, ostensibly independent of one another, while still enjoying the collusive benefits of such an agreement? And if so, wouldn&#039;t it be the responsibility of the MLBPA for not recognizing that as the likely outcome?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike: </p>
<p>Even granting that a legal finding of collusion must entail an explicit agreement and explicit communication attended thereto, to Zack&#8217;s point (as I interpret it), isn&#8217;t it possible that the way in which the owners set up the 2016 CBA—i.e., with the escalation of luxury tax, related forfeitures of draft picks, etc.—might constitute a sort of collusion aforethought in strategy, without the need for subsequent agreement and communication in tactics?  </p>
<p>IOW, is it possible the ownership cabal set up the CBA in such a way that they could not be faulted for acting in their own individual best interests, ostensibly independent of one another, while still enjoying the collusive benefits of such an agreement? And if so, wouldn&#8217;t it be the responsibility of the MLBPA for not recognizing that as the likely outcome?</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Hunt</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21456</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Hunt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2018 00:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21456</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You should have written the article.  Your reasoning is solid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should have written the article.  Your reasoning is solid.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott J Marcus</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21445</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott J Marcus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2018 14:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it is disingenuous  to call it collusion. Collusion was illegal, and teams were rightly punished. Now, rather, it seems like teams are following the rules in the current CBA, and acting intelligently. Exploiting the legal rules to your advantage is NOT the same as illegally colluding with all the other teams to suppress salaries. The MLBPA agreed to these rules. If they didn&#039;t foresee all the ramifications, that is on them. The MLBPA should figure out a way to get more money into the hands of the most productive — that is younger — players. You can’t force front offices to give out stupid contracts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is disingenuous  to call it collusion. Collusion was illegal, and teams were rightly punished. Now, rather, it seems like teams are following the rules in the current CBA, and acting intelligently. Exploiting the legal rules to your advantage is NOT the same as illegally colluding with all the other teams to suppress salaries. The MLBPA agreed to these rules. If they didn&#8217;t foresee all the ramifications, that is on them. The MLBPA should figure out a way to get more money into the hands of the most productive — that is younger — players. You can’t force front offices to give out stupid contracts.</p>
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		<title>By: Zack Moser</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21435</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zack Moser]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21435</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, you don&#039;t need to condescend to me. I know the history of the publication for which I write, and the long arc of baseball analytics writing and its influence. Those folks were right about a lot of things, wrong about many others, and they often didn&#039;t foresee the consequences their work would have on how major-league teams functioned (until some of them started implementing those ideas themselves as they were hired away).

And owners have literally always looked for ways &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; to pay players. Salary suppression and the strangling of players&#039; rights are baked right into the roots of organized baseball, and this is just the latest iteration. Owners have never &quot;happily&quot; paid anyone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, you don&#8217;t need to condescend to me. I know the history of the publication for which I write, and the long arc of baseball analytics writing and its influence. Those folks were right about a lot of things, wrong about many others, and they often didn&#8217;t foresee the consequences their work would have on how major-league teams functioned (until some of them started implementing those ideas themselves as they were hired away).</p>
<p>And owners have literally always looked for ways <em>not</em> to pay players. Salary suppression and the strangling of players&#8217; rights are baked right into the roots of organized baseball, and this is just the latest iteration. Owners have never &#8220;happily&#8221; paid anyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Juntunen</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21434</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Juntunen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21434</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zack, it isn&#039;t the owners who have argued that those players are overpaid.   20 years ago Owners were happily overplaying 35 year old guys based on reputation and wondering why their teams didn&#039;t get better.

It was this community, and this website, that argued that those players weren&#039;t worth the money and continually criticized them.   Go read some BP transaction analysis from 15 years ago.   There&#039;s not very many charitable comments.   We consistently called them idiots and told them that 35 year old, 10 time allstars probably weren&#039;t worth the money because they were washed up and done by that point - and eventually, they hired the very people who ran this website to help run their teams. 

And what do you know, now teams are doing that.

This argument didn&#039;t originate with teams or ownership, and to act like it does is to be willfully ignorant of the publishing history of the brand for which you&#039;re currently writing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zack, it isn&#8217;t the owners who have argued that those players are overpaid.   20 years ago Owners were happily overplaying 35 year old guys based on reputation and wondering why their teams didn&#8217;t get better.</p>
<p>It was this community, and this website, that argued that those players weren&#8217;t worth the money and continually criticized them.   Go read some BP transaction analysis from 15 years ago.   There&#8217;s not very many charitable comments.   We consistently called them idiots and told them that 35 year old, 10 time allstars probably weren&#8217;t worth the money because they were washed up and done by that point &#8211; and eventually, they hired the very people who ran this website to help run their teams. </p>
<p>And what do you know, now teams are doing that.</p>
<p>This argument didn&#8217;t originate with teams or ownership, and to act like it does is to be willfully ignorant of the publishing history of the brand for which you&#8217;re currently writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Juntunen</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21433</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Juntunen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zack, its completely possible for what teams are doing to both be in their rational best interest and indicative that the status quo cannot continue.

I&#039;m Dodger fan.   As an educated consumer of baseball I have no problems with their offseason conduct - they picked up a quality, needed lefthanded reliever for cheap, took a flyer on a failed starter (similar to the NRI that produced Brandon Morrow just last season), and the reality is that the players on the market are a pretty poor fit for them (they&#039;ll get 2-2.5 wins out of Pederson, Hernandez etc in LF, the weakest point on the roster .. they could pay $15m to forcibly upgrade that position by maybe a win by signing Lorenzo Cain, and that&#039;s probably the best fit FA on the market for them).   A Darvish resigning would be nice but not really worth the money - their rotation is fine and incredibly deep, with prospects (Walker Buehler, for example) on the way.

However, if teams are smart, the system will break down because MLBPA has foolishly put all their eggs in the free agency basket.   If teams will not engage in Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera contracts, the system stops working.   Right now, players provide surplus value at a young age, letting a small market team rebuild and accumulate talent and enter a phase of being competitive (see royals, or pirates) before those players depart and the cycle continues.   That system works if those players then get paid too much at the end of their careers when their value is declining.

Free agency&#039;s entire history has more or less worked this way.    Players have sold out the pre-arb and arb players for the potential of the big FA signing for their longterm members for decades, and it worked because players all dream about being a star who signs that kind of deal.

If those deals stop occuring for anyone but the transcendent talents (the Bryants, Trouts, Kershaw, Seager, Harper, etc), that system will break.

But it&#039;s also the case that I almost certainly believe my team is objectively stronger in the long run if they don&#039;t sign one of this year&#039;s poorly fit, marginal-upgrade free agents so they can both resign Kershaw for a stupid amount of money and then make a run at Harper or Machado next season (to say nothing of having the cash to eventually extend Boras-Repped Corey Seager).

Its possible to critique the way the system&#039;s breaking down without simultaneously arguing that the motivations of front offices are malign, and in fact there&#039;s a pretty good chance that&#039;s exactly what&#039;s happening.

I pointed out at some length in the comment section of the Ben Diamond article you linked that BP itself has actively advocated for most of the things that are happening for a long time.    When one or two teams is finding better value by being &#039;smart&#039;, it was good for those teams, but when every team is doing it, it is actively bad for the players because the teams have recognized they have more leverage.   

Actual collusion involves an agrement and communication.    There&#039;s a near 0% chance of finding that among sooo many executives, many of whom these days in player development and scouting are former players or former baseball writers of left-leaning bent.  

But teams are recognizing their power over free agents is much stronger than they thought, and the consistency in evaluation, the removal of many teams from the FA market in any year due to rebuilding, and the way only a few teams are good fits for each premier FA have created a situation where there&#039;s basically no bidding to be had.

How many teams really want JD Martinez?  Can you list a serious suitor besides the Red Sox?  So why should the Sox be aggressive?  In the end they will get what they want because their negotiating position is stronger.  JD only has a stronger position of multiple teams are interested in his talents, and his horrific glovework has muted the value of his upgrade to the other (very small) list of contenders that could upgrade at a corner outfield position.

The same is true of Hosmer (what contender needs a questionably reliable, slightly better than average first baseman?  Teams have Rizzo and Bellinger, and, for that matter, Yuli Gurriel who are superior or equal players).   The Astros and Dodgers have more starting pitching than they have rotation spots for; the list of suitors for  Darvish is in practice the Cubs and Twins.

This CBA&#039;s structure makes it punitive to exceed certain thresholds and, more importantly, ahs made those thresholds ramp up very slowly.    the average team payroll is increasing much faster than the tax line, and more importantly, than the critical Second Surtax line that costs teams as much as 93% of the overage (if they are in the 50% multiple-offender tier) and degrades their first round draft choice.   That line is going to be an effective salary cap for everyone but a team in absolute win-now mode.

Alleging that the owners&#039; behavior is rooted in only profit motive weakens your argument.   It is sufficient to argue that this change to the status quo is going to fuck the players in a very bad way and will need to be changed without ascribing rationale.   Many clubs have shown that profit is far from their single motivator (look at the payrolls the Dodgers and Yankees have run before), and those teams don&#039;t see the need to spend right now, because the thing that pressures them to spend (competition) isn&#039;t pushing.   The Dodgers are 10 games better than the next best team in their division.   If they want to upgrade to get an edge on the Cubs in the next NLCS, they&#039;ll do it at the trade deadline when they have a better idea of their needs and know who has been injured or declined in the course of the season.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zack, its completely possible for what teams are doing to both be in their rational best interest and indicative that the status quo cannot continue.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m Dodger fan.   As an educated consumer of baseball I have no problems with their offseason conduct &#8211; they picked up a quality, needed lefthanded reliever for cheap, took a flyer on a failed starter (similar to the NRI that produced Brandon Morrow just last season), and the reality is that the players on the market are a pretty poor fit for them (they&#8217;ll get 2-2.5 wins out of Pederson, Hernandez etc in LF, the weakest point on the roster .. they could pay $15m to forcibly upgrade that position by maybe a win by signing Lorenzo Cain, and that&#8217;s probably the best fit FA on the market for them).   A Darvish resigning would be nice but not really worth the money &#8211; their rotation is fine and incredibly deep, with prospects (Walker Buehler, for example) on the way.</p>
<p>However, if teams are smart, the system will break down because MLBPA has foolishly put all their eggs in the free agency basket.   If teams will not engage in Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera contracts, the system stops working.   Right now, players provide surplus value at a young age, letting a small market team rebuild and accumulate talent and enter a phase of being competitive (see royals, or pirates) before those players depart and the cycle continues.   That system works if those players then get paid too much at the end of their careers when their value is declining.</p>
<p>Free agency&#8217;s entire history has more or less worked this way.    Players have sold out the pre-arb and arb players for the potential of the big FA signing for their longterm members for decades, and it worked because players all dream about being a star who signs that kind of deal.</p>
<p>If those deals stop occuring for anyone but the transcendent talents (the Bryants, Trouts, Kershaw, Seager, Harper, etc), that system will break.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s also the case that I almost certainly believe my team is objectively stronger in the long run if they don&#8217;t sign one of this year&#8217;s poorly fit, marginal-upgrade free agents so they can both resign Kershaw for a stupid amount of money and then make a run at Harper or Machado next season (to say nothing of having the cash to eventually extend Boras-Repped Corey Seager).</p>
<p>Its possible to critique the way the system&#8217;s breaking down without simultaneously arguing that the motivations of front offices are malign, and in fact there&#8217;s a pretty good chance that&#8217;s exactly what&#8217;s happening.</p>
<p>I pointed out at some length in the comment section of the Ben Diamond article you linked that BP itself has actively advocated for most of the things that are happening for a long time.    When one or two teams is finding better value by being &#8216;smart&#8217;, it was good for those teams, but when every team is doing it, it is actively bad for the players because the teams have recognized they have more leverage.   </p>
<p>Actual collusion involves an agrement and communication.    There&#8217;s a near 0% chance of finding that among sooo many executives, many of whom these days in player development and scouting are former players or former baseball writers of left-leaning bent.  </p>
<p>But teams are recognizing their power over free agents is much stronger than they thought, and the consistency in evaluation, the removal of many teams from the FA market in any year due to rebuilding, and the way only a few teams are good fits for each premier FA have created a situation where there&#8217;s basically no bidding to be had.</p>
<p>How many teams really want JD Martinez?  Can you list a serious suitor besides the Red Sox?  So why should the Sox be aggressive?  In the end they will get what they want because their negotiating position is stronger.  JD only has a stronger position of multiple teams are interested in his talents, and his horrific glovework has muted the value of his upgrade to the other (very small) list of contenders that could upgrade at a corner outfield position.</p>
<p>The same is true of Hosmer (what contender needs a questionably reliable, slightly better than average first baseman?  Teams have Rizzo and Bellinger, and, for that matter, Yuli Gurriel who are superior or equal players).   The Astros and Dodgers have more starting pitching than they have rotation spots for; the list of suitors for  Darvish is in practice the Cubs and Twins.</p>
<p>This CBA&#8217;s structure makes it punitive to exceed certain thresholds and, more importantly, ahs made those thresholds ramp up very slowly.    the average team payroll is increasing much faster than the tax line, and more importantly, than the critical Second Surtax line that costs teams as much as 93% of the overage (if they are in the 50% multiple-offender tier) and degrades their first round draft choice.   That line is going to be an effective salary cap for everyone but a team in absolute win-now mode.</p>
<p>Alleging that the owners&#8217; behavior is rooted in only profit motive weakens your argument.   It is sufficient to argue that this change to the status quo is going to fuck the players in a very bad way and will need to be changed without ascribing rationale.   Many clubs have shown that profit is far from their single motivator (look at the payrolls the Dodgers and Yankees have run before), and those teams don&#8217;t see the need to spend right now, because the thing that pressures them to spend (competition) isn&#8217;t pushing.   The Dodgers are 10 games better than the next best team in their division.   If they want to upgrade to get an edge on the Cubs in the next NLCS, they&#8217;ll do it at the trade deadline when they have a better idea of their needs and know who has been injured or declined in the course of the season.</p>
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		<title>By: ZO</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21432</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ZO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2018 01:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21432</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does &quot;Capatilism &gt; Utopian Nonsense&quot; have anything substantive to add or critique? So far, all I&#039;ve seen from this character is evidence of a limp and lazy brain.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does &#8220;Capatilism &gt; Utopian Nonsense&#8221; have anything substantive to add or critique? So far, all I&#8217;ve seen from this character is evidence of a limp and lazy brain.</p>
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		<title>By: Hollywood Mark</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21431</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hollywood Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2018 19:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Naysayers will change their tune when two competing spring training camps open - one with all the &quot;aging&quot; stars = 136 declining players and the other with no name rooks. Games will be played on the field as the 136 break down into All-Star teams of free agents. The media (sans (MLBTV) will salivate to cover these games and alternate all-star spring training beginning February 8th. Should be fun!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Naysayers will change their tune when two competing spring training camps open &#8211; one with all the &#8220;aging&#8221; stars = 136 declining players and the other with no name rooks. Games will be played on the field as the 136 break down into All-Star teams of free agents. The media (sans (MLBTV) will salivate to cover these games and alternate all-star spring training beginning February 8th. Should be fun!!</p>
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		<title>By: Hollywood Mark</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21430</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hollywood Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2018 19:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21430</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brilliant piece. I was screaming at the TV yesterday morning as Rosenthal on Hot Stove literally laid out the legal defense of the owners under the &quot;getting smart&quot; manifesto. I will never take Rosenthal straight up again. MLB TV claiming and blaming everyone from Boras to the weather while avoiding Collusion 4 - the obvious hokem pokem&#039;s razor reason. Thanks for the great piece.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant piece. I was screaming at the TV yesterday morning as Rosenthal on Hot Stove literally laid out the legal defense of the owners under the &#8220;getting smart&#8221; manifesto. I will never take Rosenthal straight up again. MLB TV claiming and blaming everyone from Boras to the weather while avoiding Collusion 4 &#8211; the obvious hokem pokem&#8217;s razor reason. Thanks for the great piece.</p>
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		<title>By: Capatilism &#62; Utopian Nonsense</title>
		<link>http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/01/08/collusion-by-any-other-name-would-smell-as-foul/#comment-21429</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Capatilism &#62; Utopian Nonsense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2018 18:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=22651#comment-21429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zack is proof that there is nothing  worse than an intellectual who lacks intellect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zack is proof that there is nothing  worse than an intellectual who lacks intellect.</p>
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